Dear all, Please find below the minutes from the RMCAT BOF, and please let us have any comments / fixes by the end of the week. Thanks! Cheers, Michael Minutes of the RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques (RMCAT) BoF Reported by Colin Perkins The RMCAT BoF was held from 13:00-15:00 on 2 August 2012 at the IETF 84 meeting in Vancouver, Canada. The chairs were Michael Welzl (University of Oslo) and Colin Perkins (University of Glasgow). The BoF grew out of discussions around the RTCWEB working group, and was coordinated on the <rtp‐congestion@alvestrand.no> mailing list. Introduction Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-1.pdf The chairs introduced the BoF. The IETF and W3C are currently developing standards for video conferencing in web browsers, using an RTP-based media layer. The resulting systems are expected to see wide deployment. This is potentially problematic, since standards for RTP congestion control are not well developed. This risks causing congestion collapse in the Internet in the worst case, and in the short-term may disrupt the quality of experience due to interactions between flows. The main goal of this BoF is to understand the problem, and agree on a process for finding a solution. Problem Statement Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-5.pdf Harald Alvestrand gave a more detailed outline of the problem statement. He noted that the Internet is dominated by TCP traffic, and that real- time interactive traffic is a niche, comprising mostly low-bandwidth VoIP and gaming flows, generally running on managed or high capacity networks. RTCWEB is aiming to change this, deploying interactive and high-bandwidth video on unmanaged and variable quality networks. Harald re-iterated the potential for congestion collapse due to these flows, and noted also that a consequence of the interactive nature of these applications is that low delay is as important as a sufficient bandwidth allocation. He also noted that these applications, while being relatively high bandwidth, have both upper- and lower-bounds on the bandwidth they can consume. Several mechanisms exist that might be considered for congestion control of interactive real-time applications. TCP can be said to deliver obsolete data reliably, encouraging full queues at bottlenecks, and so cannot meet the delay bounds. TFRC has smoother behaviour than TCP and is unreliable, but does not focus on minimizing delay, and has not seen wide deployment for a range of reasons. There are also proprietary mechanisms, that are by definition not interoperable. None of these are suitable. What we need from a future working group is a well-defined problem statement, one (or more) fully specified mechanisms for solving the congestion problem for interactive real-time applications, and metrics against which the success of that mechanism can be evaluated. Context: IAB/IRTF Congestion Control Workshop Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-6.pdf Michael Welzl summarised the outcomes of the workshop on congestion control for interactive real-time applications that was held on 28 July 2012 in Vancouver. The workshop asked 1) if, absent changes to the network, we can develop a useful congestion control algorithm for interactive media; 2) if there is work in the area of measurements that we can use to create incentives to make updates to the network happen; and 3) if it is useful to develop a congestion control mechanism that assumes the problem is in the end host only, where there is idle capacity in the network. The consensus of the workshop participants was to answer yes to all these questions, but to note a wide range of normal delay variation in non-congested networks, which will significantly complicate the problem due to the delay bounds of interactive applications. The workshop participants noted that there are both short- and long-term paths to the solution. In the long-term, we should consider ECN, active queue management, and ways to segregate non-delay sensitive TCP traffic from interactive traffic. In the short term, there is potential to avoid self-inflicted queuing and ensure that e.g. browsers sending interactive flows don't cause excessive congestion and delay. Properties and limitations of the media codecs and feedback channel were noted, as was the trade-off between loss- and delay-based algorithms. Context: Buffer Bloat and AQM Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-4.pdf Jim Gettys summarised issues relating to buffer bloat and active queue management (AQM) in the network. Numerous middleboxes, especially home gateway devices, and hosts have excess buffering. This can lead to large standing queues in the presence of TCP traffic, since TCP tries to fill the pipe, but doesn't try to minimise delay. This is problematic for interactive media flows that do care about delay. There are numerous pieces to the solution including reducing buffering in the network, deploying active queue management (where the new CoDel algorithm has promise), and developing new congestion control algorithms. None are likely to solve the problem in the short term, so RMCAT will need to cope with over-buffered networks when designing a solution. Context: Competing Traffic Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-3.pdf Matt Mathis outlined the problems with interactive media flows competing with TCP traffic ("TCP Friendly is an oxymoron"). The fundamental problem is that TCP requires queues for correct operation, but interactive media flows cannot tolerate queueing. Modern TCP stacks are sufficiently well tuned that they will cause queuing on any network path, if they don't run out of data to send first. Matt believes the solution is a combination of traffic segregation, coupled with metrics to expose the problem. For interactive media congestion control, he recommended the group assume a (mostly) empty queue, and design the congestion control to avoid causing self-inflicted queuing delay and to provide "fair" sharing between media flows. Queuing delay is unavoidable in the presence of TCP cross-traffic, and a circuit breaker is needed to avoid serious congestion, but he suggested to avoid over-think interactions in failure cases: "protecting TCP is unnecessary, it will not return the favour". Outline Proposals for Potential Solutions Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-2.pdf and http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-0.pdf Harald Alvestrand and Piers O'Hanlon presented candidate congestion control algorithms for interactive media applications. The proposal from Harald is a delay-based algorithm, based on analysis of filtered packet inter-arrival times; Piers suggested a variant of the TFRC algorithm that also includes a delay-based component. Neither algorithm was discussed in detail. Proposed Charter and Discussion Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-1.pdf Draft charter: http://rtp-congestion.alvestrand.com/bof-planning-page/wg-charter---input-to... The chairs outlined the proposed charter and invited discussion. The following points were raised: - Matt Mathis suggested that a missing item on the charter is defining a clear metric that can be used to report congestion-related problems to the users of interactive media applications. - Magnus Westerlund asked if congestion control for calls using a mixer or other application-layer middlebox should be in scope for the group. It is possible to run a separate control loop on each side of the middlebox, but this can require media transcoding for rate adaptation if the two sides of the call achieve different bandwidth allocations. Passing congestion signals through the middlebox can allow end-to-end congestion control, avoiding transcoding, so the group should possibly consider coupled congestion control for this scenario. Cullen Jennings disagreed, wanting to limit the scope to point-to-point flows only and to remove anything to do with middleboxes. - Stephan Wenger suggested that the discussions have been behind the state of the art in joint source-channel coding. The group should consider that not all packets are equal in importance when designing congestion control algorithms. - Toerless Eckert suggested that the group may be too constrained by not being able to change TCP. - Eric Rescorla noted that the pace of browser development is fast, and would allow us to rapidly roll out new versions of congestion control provided it is scoped to running in a single application-level process. This suggests that trying to change operating system or network layer components should be outside the scope. - Harald Alvestrand and Spencer Dawkins agreed to keep the scope small, and suggested that the Transport Area could consider the wider issues, possibly creating other working groups if necessary. Limiting the scope of a possible RMCAT working group should not limit the wider discussion of the issues. - Randell Jesup wanted clarification that AQM is out of scope. The chairs agreed that defining AQM would be out of scope for RMCAT, but the group might decide to develop proposals that could use AQM if available. - Van Jacobson commented that the problem to be tackled is difficult. He recalled some of the history of developing TCP congestion control, and suggested that solving the self-interference problem for interactive media flows would be a sufficient challenge. Van recommended that the group consider impact on TCP as a second-order problem. - Jonathan Lennox, Spencer Dawkins, and others wondered why the charter proposed initial publication of the algorithms as experimental RFCs. The process is unusual, and it is not clear how deploying the algorithms in browsers with hundreds of millions of users can be classed as an experiment. Ted Hardie suggested that an important point is how easily and quickly the algorithm can be updated. - On a related note, Lars Eggert noted that defining evaluation criteria is important: what denotes success for the group? Lars also suggested that we need to be clearer on how we evaluate candidate algorithms, noting that we should have experiments that can be replicated, and competing proposals evaluated against the same criteria to ensure fairness and clarity in the evaluation. Toerless Eckert echoed these statements. - Harald Alvestrand suggested that we need to identify how multiple flows work, and how flows can be grouped together. To what extent should congestion control of aggregates of independent flows sharing a 5-tuple be in scope? Michael Welzl suggested that defined APIs may be a part of this. - Bob Briscoe cautioned the group that congestion control is a difficult problem, and suggested that we may want to develop a framework, rather than a single algorithm. - ??? suggested that a requirements document is a missing deliverable in the charter. He also noted that media congestion control is broader than RTCWEB, and suggested that the group should try to avoid limiting the applicability of the algorithms developed to just RTCWEB. The chairs wrapped-up the discussion by asking three questions: - Do you think that the problem is clear, well‐scoped, solvable, and worth solving? There was a hum in favour. - Do you support forming a WG with the charter outlined? There was a strong hum in favour. - Would you be willing to work on one or more of the drafts outlined? There was a significant constituency of people willing to work on the drafts. The charter will be updated based on the discussion and circulated on the mailing list for review. The chairs and the area directors will then work to form a working group. - + -
My presentation should end: .... suggested to avoid over-think interactions in failure cases, >>and ended with a quote from Andrew McGregor:<< "protecting TCP is unnecessary, it will not return the favour". Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:24 AM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
Dear all,
Please find below the minutes from the RMCAT BOF, and please let us have any comments / fixes by the end of the week. Thanks!
Cheers, Michael
Minutes of the RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques (RMCAT) BoF
Reported by Colin Perkins
The RMCAT BoF was held from 13:00-15:00 on 2 August 2012 at the IETF 84 meeting in Vancouver, Canada. The chairs were Michael Welzl (University of Oslo) and Colin Perkins (University of Glasgow). The BoF grew out of discussions around the RTCWEB working group, and was coordinated on the <rtp‐congestion@alvestrand.no> mailing list.
Introduction
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-1.pdf
The chairs introduced the BoF. The IETF and W3C are currently developing standards for video conferencing in web browsers, using an RTP-based media layer. The resulting systems are expected to see wide deployment. This is potentially problematic, since standards for RTP congestion control are not well developed. This risks causing congestion collapse in the Internet in the worst case, and in the short-term may disrupt the quality of experience due to interactions between flows. The main goal of this BoF is to understand the problem, and agree on a process for finding a solution.
Problem Statement
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-5.pdf
Harald Alvestrand gave a more detailed outline of the problem statement. He noted that the Internet is dominated by TCP traffic, and that real- time interactive traffic is a niche, comprising mostly low-bandwidth VoIP and gaming flows, generally running on managed or high capacity networks. RTCWEB is aiming to change this, deploying interactive and high-bandwidth video on unmanaged and variable quality networks. Harald re-iterated the potential for congestion collapse due to these flows, and noted also that a consequence of the interactive nature of these applications is that low delay is as important as a sufficient bandwidth allocation. He also noted that these applications, while being relatively high bandwidth, have both upper- and lower-bounds on the bandwidth they can consume.
Several mechanisms exist that might be considered for congestion control of interactive real-time applications. TCP can be said to deliver obsolete data reliably, encouraging full queues at bottlenecks, and so cannot meet the delay bounds. TFRC has smoother behaviour than TCP and is unreliable, but does not focus on minimizing delay, and has not seen wide deployment for a range of reasons. There are also proprietary mechanisms, that are by definition not interoperable. None of these are suitable. What we need from a future working group is a well-defined problem statement, one (or more) fully specified mechanisms for solving the congestion problem for interactive real-time applications, and metrics against which the success of that mechanism can be evaluated.
Context: IAB/IRTF Congestion Control Workshop
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-6.pdf
Michael Welzl summarised the outcomes of the workshop on congestion control for interactive real-time applications that was held on 28 July 2012 in Vancouver. The workshop asked 1) if, absent changes to the network, we can develop a useful congestion control algorithm for interactive media; 2) if there is work in the area of measurements that we can use to create incentives to make updates to the network happen; and 3) if it is useful to develop a congestion control mechanism that assumes the problem is in the end host only, where there is idle capacity in the network. The consensus of the workshop participants was to answer yes to all these questions, but to note a wide range of normal delay variation in non-congested networks, which will significantly complicate the problem due to the delay bounds of interactive applications.
The workshop participants noted that there are both short- and long-term paths to the solution. In the long-term, we should consider ECN, active queue management, and ways to segregate non-delay sensitive TCP traffic from interactive traffic. In the short term, there is potential to avoid self-inflicted queuing and ensure that e.g. browsers sending interactive flows don't cause excessive congestion and delay. Properties and limitations of the media codecs and feedback channel were noted, as was the trade-off between loss- and delay-based algorithms.
Context: Buffer Bloat and AQM
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-4.pdf
Jim Gettys summarised issues relating to buffer bloat and active queue management (AQM) in the network. Numerous middleboxes, especially home gateway devices, and hosts have excess buffering. This can lead to large standing queues in the presence of TCP traffic, since TCP tries to fill the pipe, but doesn't try to minimise delay. This is problematic for interactive media flows that do care about delay. There are numerous pieces to the solution including reducing buffering in the network, deploying active queue management (where the new CoDel algorithm has promise), and developing new congestion control algorithms. None are likely to solve the problem in the short term, so RMCAT will need to cope with over-buffered networks when designing a solution.
Context: Competing Traffic
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-3.pdf
Matt Mathis outlined the problems with interactive media flows competing with TCP traffic ("TCP Friendly is an oxymoron"). The fundamental problem is that TCP requires queues for correct operation, but interactive media flows cannot tolerate queueing. Modern TCP stacks are sufficiently well tuned that they will cause queuing on any network path, if they don't run out of data to send first. Matt believes the solution is a combination of traffic segregation, coupled with metrics to expose the problem. For interactive media congestion control, he recommended the group assume a (mostly) empty queue, and design the congestion control to avoid causing self-inflicted queuing delay and to provide "fair" sharing between media flows. Queuing delay is unavoidable in the presence of TCP cross-traffic, and a circuit breaker is needed to avoid serious congestion, but he suggested to avoid over-think interactions in failure cases: "protecting TCP is unnecessary, it will not return the favour".
Outline Proposals for Potential Solutions
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-2.pdf and http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-0.pdf
Harald Alvestrand and Piers O'Hanlon presented candidate congestion control algorithms for interactive media applications. The proposal from Harald is a delay-based algorithm, based on analysis of filtered packet inter-arrival times; Piers suggested a variant of the TFRC algorithm that also includes a delay-based component. Neither algorithm was discussed in detail.
Proposed Charter and Discussion
Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-rmcat-1.pdf
Draft charter: http://rtp-congestion.alvestrand.com/bof-planning-page/wg-charter---input-to...
The chairs outlined the proposed charter and invited discussion. The following points were raised:
- Matt Mathis suggested that a missing item on the charter is defining a clear metric that can be used to report congestion-related problems to the users of interactive media applications.
- Magnus Westerlund asked if congestion control for calls using a mixer or other application-layer middlebox should be in scope for the group. It is possible to run a separate control loop on each side of the middlebox, but this can require media transcoding for rate adaptation if the two sides of the call achieve different bandwidth allocations. Passing congestion signals through the middlebox can allow end-to-end congestion control, avoiding transcoding, so the group should possibly consider coupled congestion control for this scenario. Cullen Jennings disagreed, wanting to limit the scope to point-to-point flows only and to remove anything to do with middleboxes.
- Stephan Wenger suggested that the discussions have been behind the state of the art in joint source-channel coding. The group should consider that not all packets are equal in importance when designing congestion control algorithms.
- Toerless Eckert suggested that the group may be too constrained by not being able to change TCP.
- Eric Rescorla noted that the pace of browser development is fast, and would allow us to rapidly roll out new versions of congestion control provided it is scoped to running in a single application-level process. This suggests that trying to change operating system or network layer components should be outside the scope.
- Harald Alvestrand and Spencer Dawkins agreed to keep the scope small, and suggested that the Transport Area could consider the wider issues, possibly creating other working groups if necessary. Limiting the scope of a possible RMCAT working group should not limit the wider discussion of the issues.
- Randell Jesup wanted clarification that AQM is out of scope. The chairs agreed that defining AQM would be out of scope for RMCAT, but the group might decide to develop proposals that could use AQM if available.
- Van Jacobson commented that the problem to be tackled is difficult. He recalled some of the history of developing TCP congestion control, and suggested that solving the self-interference problem for interactive media flows would be a sufficient challenge. Van recommended that the group consider impact on TCP as a second-order problem.
- Jonathan Lennox, Spencer Dawkins, and others wondered why the charter proposed initial publication of the algorithms as experimental RFCs. The process is unusual, and it is not clear how deploying the algorithms in browsers with hundreds of millions of users can be classed as an experiment. Ted Hardie suggested that an important point is how easily and quickly the algorithm can be updated.
- On a related note, Lars Eggert noted that defining evaluation criteria is important: what denotes success for the group? Lars also suggested that we need to be clearer on how we evaluate candidate algorithms, noting that we should have experiments that can be replicated, and competing proposals evaluated against the same criteria to ensure fairness and clarity in the evaluation. Toerless Eckert echoed these statements.
- Harald Alvestrand suggested that we need to identify how multiple flows work, and how flows can be grouped together. To what extent should congestion control of aggregates of independent flows sharing a 5-tuple be in scope? Michael Welzl suggested that defined APIs may be a part of this.
- Bob Briscoe cautioned the group that congestion control is a difficult problem, and suggested that we may want to develop a framework, rather than a single algorithm.
- ??? suggested that a requirements document is a missing deliverable in the charter. He also noted that media congestion control is broader than RTCWEB, and suggested that the group should try to avoid limiting the applicability of the algorithms developed to just RTCWEB.
The chairs wrapped-up the discussion by asking three questions:
- Do you think that the problem is clear, well‐scoped, solvable, and worth solving? There was a hum in favour.
- Do you support forming a WG with the charter outlined? There was a strong hum in favour.
- Would you be willing to work on one or more of the drafts outlined? There was a significant constituency of people willing to work on the drafts.
The charter will be updated based on the discussion and circulated on the mailing list for review. The chairs and the area directors will then work to form a working group.
- + -
_______________________________________________ Rtp-congestion mailing list Rtp-congestion@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtp-congestion
participants (2)
-
Matt Mathis -
Michael Welzl